Wingspan Birds of Prey Trust Sponsorship
During the PG Open Round 2 competition that was held in Rotorua, some of our members visited the Wingspan Birds of Prey Trust and enjoyed a great day learning about the work they do for endangered and at risk birds of prey and had an opportunity to handle these fantastic birds.
A request was made to the committee to consider sponsoring Wingspan as a worthy cause. The details of the sponsorship can be viewed on their website, please go to www.wingspan.co.nz for further details, but essentially, for a donation of $100 or $500 we get to name a wild or captive bird of prey, receive updates of the progress of the bird and gain free admission for club members to the Wingspan centre in Rotorua.
We have created a poll to give everyone an opportunity to say what they would like the club to do in this matter. Please click the link or see the poll in the left hand sidebar and have your say. Note, this poll is only open to club members, so you have to login first. If you still can't access the poll contact the web admin.
Comments
Wingspan sounds like a worthy
Wingspan sounds like a worthy cause and I would encourage members to make their own private contribution.
I would, however, like to register my objection to the club's use of the government's coercive power to extract contributions to charity from it's members. Whether the majority votes for it or not (nice to see they aren't at the moment), it is still immoral.
Kindred Spirits
Wingspan is a worthy cause.
Like "us" (pgs/hgs) these animals are under the constant threat of loss of Airspace and the right to fly free.
Unlke an egocentric donation to the Rescue Helicopter (another worthy cause) we will receive no direct benefit other than maybe one day in the future having the privilege to share the air with these beautiful animals.
Feel the Love.
What's the government got to
What's the government got to do with it? As I understand it we're not being coerced to donate anything as a club if the majority of members don't want to.
So it's OK if the majority of
So it's OK if the majority of members want to steal from the minority? The mob decides what's right and wrong?
Will there be a fees increase to cover this spending, or have we already had it?
When I joined, I thought the membership fee would be used to support hang gliding and paragliding in Auckland (I was misled by the name of the club, obviously). I had no idea that every time our leaders hearts swelled with the spirit of giving they would pleasure themselves by giving away my money. What objection do people have against giving donations privately, if they are so moved? Why not raise funds specifically for this cause? Rather than using club funds for this manifestly illegitimate purpose, just ask for donations. Our feathered friends might do even better than the $500 suggested.
I had to purchase the legal permission to fly in this country. The government will do judicial violence to me if I decide to go paragliding without financially contributing to the club. I think that means the club has a moral obligation to stick to it's knitting.
That's a bit strong avrflr.
That's a bit strong avrflr. This idea was initiated by ordinary members, not the committee, not "the mob" or the government. What the heck is with all that stuff about coercion, mob rule and morality? You seem to have other issues you need to deal with.
If our leaders really did as you say and gave money away whenever their hearts swelled then there wouldn't be a poll. They would just do it and not tell you. Good idea.
Wing Span
I also like the wing span trust but I must agree that I think people should be encouraged to donate privately if they wish. Maybe set up an easy way for club members to donate to them. Club fees are not the right way to support them, I think, as this isn't club business in any one way.
From memory, we also donate to the Westpac Helicopter Trust, but that I find justified as members depend on their work at times (desperate times, usually).
Democracy and Majority
Democracy - Defn: Control of an organisation or group by the majority of its members.
Majority - Defn: The greater number. (The Mob)
Theoretically there needs to be more than 50% of the paid up members voting for the proposal for it to succeed.
I don't think anywhere near enough of the members are even going to see or respond to the poll. There also doesn't appear to be any time limit for the Poll.
Seems to me the Poll, though well intentioned (and pretty flash), will be of little use in helping make an informed decision.
It's not really a donation if
It's not really a donation if we only do it because we expect to use the service. A donation is where you don't expect anything in return. Except the satisfaction of knowing you helped out.
I think the club should do this sort of thing occassionally because it helps to show we are good community minded people who don't just take without giving. Sure individuals can make their own donations but that doesn't have the same status as an "official" one from the organisation that represents us as a group of pilots.
The club's business is to promote our sport. To do that we need goodwill from people and communities outside our sport. Perhaps this is part of increasing our goodwill.
If you give a donation of
If you give a donation of your own money, you may also get the satisfaction of knowing you didn't have to pick anyone's pocket to do it.
The argument that a donation from general club funds is more powerful than a donation made up of money collected specifically for the purpose is wafer thin. If the club presents the cheque, how does the community know the difference? Do the birds sense it?
I'm with her.
I'm with her.
Well you married her so it
Well you married her so it makes sense ;-)
(No subject)
What a beat up... I think
What a beat up...
I think the poll questions are flawed and not quite right. There is no distinction between the mentioned donation values i.e. $100 or $500. The notice suggests if we donate we get in for free anyway as members, so why two yes categories? what vote Yes to get a freebie? There should also be a category for fence sitters, say, I don’t know. And one for maybe, say, The Club should spend funds elsewhere. The, No definitely not, is leading. This may result in a more representative poll of numbers.
If members went to the Club meeting or look here: http://www.cloudbase.org.nz/node/670 you would see the Committee is simply following through with the request made as agreed with members by a ballot process. I was at this meeting, am not part of the Committee, and listened to the member’s proposition which seemed fair and reasonable. I was also at the PG Open when this visit was made but did not go myself, I do however have some empathy with what was explained by them. Conversely, I would not donate personally to this Trust believing there are higher ranking social problems.
I also fail to make the connection with the New Zealand Government or its apparent ‘coercive power’ in this case. As far as the Committees morality is concerned, a moral judgement, or for that matter any kind of value judgement must be supported by good reasons. If we are told that a certain action would be wrong, we are also entitled to ask why and if there is no satisfactory answer, reject that advice as unfounded. In this way moral judgements are different from personal preferences.
I see paragliding as an eco sport and consider the club needs to look beyond token philanthropy and basic compliance needs. After all, a club is an association of people united by a common interest. Maybe more members should go to meetings.
I don't actually want to be a
I don't actually want to be a member of a club, I just want to go paragliding. The government twisted my arm, see? If I want to avoid having any part of my wealth redistributed by eco sportsmen, I can't go paragliding, or I will be fined. It really is all about coercion.
I want to go Paragliding too, but the weather is sh*t.
Sorry but no.
Its all about being part of society.
Unfortunately we have developed all these rules to avoid anarchy (and some to create it).
Belonging to a "club" is just the price you pay for the privilege to fly.
Treat it as a donation.
(That's an idea, I wonder if our fees could be called donations for tax purposes, now that the club is becoming a charity?)
Love these "Polls", can we have another one next week please? You pick the topic. Make it a good one.
I was happy to pay my
I was happy to pay my membership fee, on the understanding that the money would be used for the purposes described in the club rules. If the club were to become an all-purpose save the world foundation, I would not support it. I see no reason to allow a majority of Auckland HG/PG pilots to direct any part of my charitable giving outside the sphere of free flying.
Why would you want to pay less tax, Tony? Just treat it as a donation.
Sponsoration or Donaship?
As this is meant to be a Sponsorship (I think?), I suppose we should really be discussing whether the "return/benefit" is worth the "input/money".
A donation is normally one-way traffic, whereas a sponsorship is meant to be two-way.
So is the Club going to get a $500 or $??? return?
I don't know, how would you measure it? Number of free visits made by Club Members over time maybe.
Call it cheap/expensive advertising/promotion. Would we get a better return some other way?
We don't seem to do any other sort of promotional stuff, why do we need to do it now?
If we are going to promote our sport/club, will this sponsorship hit the target market?
I like the word Sponsorship better that Donation.
Pity about the flame war
Hi guys,
Although this is a worthy cause, I think our club should stick to business - providing opportunities to go paragliding and hang gliding in New Zealand. There are many other good causes, such as donating to alleviate the suffering of those caught up in the Pakistan flooding, but if I want to donate I will do it privately and outside the club. The same goes for Wingspan. I don't think the club has a mandate from members to use fees to donate to other causes not related to our sport. If we have an excess of money we should either make the club fees cheaper or throw a party. I think the Westpac helicopter is an exception, because we obviously use this service and it is related to our sport.
I understand how some people are annoyed at the club structure in New Zealand, and the enforced membership. But look at the alternatives - we could never individually negotiate with the CAA to fly. My hat goes off to the club leadership who can actually be bothered to create safety courses, national standards (PG1, PG2, etc) and deal with the government, police, etc. Additionally, although the club fee costs about the same in NZ as it does in European countries (actually it's a bit cheaper), there is almost no-one at our NZ flying sites. In Germany I have to wait up to 30 minutes to fly at a site, and there are many more hoops to jump through before flying is even allowed in the first place.
So enforced membership has its negative aspects, but in my mind these are far outweighed by the benefits we receive. The only suggestion I can make is to have a cheaper short-term membership for visiting pilots such as Europe has for us (often you can just fly without club membership because you are a visitor!).
I think we are all suffering
I think we are all suffering from too much pent up energy through lack of flying!
Guys, this is simple. One of OUR club members said something like " I think it would be a good idea if the club donates something to Wingspan".
The club committee decided NOT to spend the club's money. Instead, members of the committee put their (unpaid) time and effort in to informing the club members about this and making it possible for them to respond. The decision to donate or not is in the hands of the members, not the committee.
Next time the members worry about where some of their money goes they should also appreciate that it is through the effort of committee members that the club is now RECEIVING a donation of $500 for the maintenace of the track leading to tha launch at Kariotahi.
Perhaps we should refuse this on moral grounds.....
Xen.
Bravo
Hypothetically, Xen, if the money was taken under false pretenses (e.g. the donors thought the money was going to the Auckland Badminton Club) then you absolutely should refuse it on moral grounds.
I had a fantastic flight on Friday. Why isn't everyone else flying? I just don't understand you people
I'm going to make a donation to Wingspan. It's so nice to have the choice.
Alternative donation scheme for Wingspan
Step away from the handbags, ladies. (No offense intended, Eva)
Just set up an online process whereby people can voluntarily make a personal donation to a fund for Wingspan. Once it seems to have run its course then send the total to Wingspan and say it's from the club. Need it be any more complicated than that?
It doesn't make any difference whether you get $10, $100 or $1000.
End of drama.
In case anyone's interested
Here's the page to donate to the bloody birds:
http://www.wingspan.co.nz/shop.html
Worthy, but beyond the role of the Club
I'm not going to apologise for getting "legal" on this issue, but the AHGPC is an incorporated sports club, with a defined purpose - HG & PG (I'd need to check the Constitution, but that is only part of the picture).
The members largely belong to the AHGPC (and for that matter to the NZHGPA) through compulsion, and we have achieved what we have achieved (largely unregulated foot launched free flight) through the work of volunteers over the years. The combination of that compulsion, and the generosity of a surprisingly large number of members, has resulted in a substantial asset - CAA accreditation, procedures, relationships with land owners etc, and in our case cash in the bank. That asset has one purpose - PG/HG.
Despite the worthiness of the cause (and many other causes), even if there is a clear majority of members in favour of such a donation, it is outside the purposes of the club and in my view such a donation should not be made. Put up a link, and encourage people to donate, if you like. But don't use club funds.
The Westpac Helicopter Trust is an entirely different issue. Not sure where the donation for the Kario track comes into it - it is a main HG launch site, and if we can get a donation for it, so much the better. Not sure it follows that because we can receive donations from any quarter, we can donate to all worthy causes.
Cheers
John
Donations
The club should not make any donations (and that includes the Helicopter Trust) on my behalf, that is my own responsibility. Club funds should only be used for club purposes, eg. develop and maintain sites, fulfill legal requirements, licensing, etc.
Conclusion
It looks like this discussion has run it's course, so it's time to wind it up.
The consensus of opinion seems to be that Wingspan is not sufficiently closely aligned to the club's purpose, and does not offer sufficient benefit to our members to warrant sponsorship. Therefore no sponsorship will be made.
You are however encouraged to make your own contribution directly to Wingspan if you feel inclined.
The poll is now closed but you are free to make further comment on this thread is you wish. We look forward to an equally lively discussion on the next poll coming soon...