Site guide
I understand that work is underway to put the site guide online on the web site. I suggest that instead of building that into the web site we put the information into one of the existing online site guides. Specifically I recommend www.paraglidingearth.com. It has a nice layout and lots of functions like Google maps integration, searching, photos, etc. So if we use it we will get all the nice functionality for free.
I know there is a feeling that for safety reasons this information should be kept private to the club members. I have some sympathy for that stance, but I also realise that online site guides already exist and will continue to exist. They already have some NZ sites listed with limited information. It seems to me that we have three options:
1) publish the our site guide in a private part of our web site, and try to prevent other web sites from publishing that information.
2) bury our heads in the sand and pretend that the other online site guides don't exist.
3) publish our site guide information to existing sites like Paragliding Earth and ensure that the information is accurate and complete.
You can see where I am heading with this argument - preventing the unauthorised publication is not going to be possible. Censoring the internet is really, really hard to do, as the recording industry has discovered. However if we do nothing about it there is the potential that someone will get hurt by using a site that is too difficult for them, or upset some delicate access negotiations.
The best strategy we can employ is to fully populate the existing online site guides with as much information as we can, particularly the airspace rules, hazards, general safety information, access conditions and site monitor contacts. That way at least we can ensure that potential site visitors are well briefed with the relevant information and hopefully won't blunder into a sensitive or difficult site just because they saw the location listed on the internet.
Another potential benefit to publishing this information in Paragliding Earth is tourism. A quick scan of Paragliding Earth reveals 653 sites in France, 185 sites in Brazil, 64 sites in Australia, and 8 sites in NZ (with little useful detail). Where do you think overseas pilots will go for their next flying holiday?
I am more than happy to help out with getting this done if there is a consensus that it is a good idea.
Re: Site guide
I would like to second Wayne's proposal. Makes perfect sense.
Re: Site guide
Good to hear your thoughts. Anyone else have any other opinions?
We are putting a lot of work in to setting up information signs at our launch sites and getting site monitors to liase with the landowners. All this is to secure the future use of our sites for our members, and visiting pilots.
While there is no intention to restrict the use of our sites, we need to find a way to ensure that visiting pilots follow site rules so as not to damage the relationship with the landowner. Putting up the site signs and having site monitors is one attempt to do this. Another way is to make the site guide available to members only, and to open it up to visiting pilots once they have made contact with the club.
Cheers,
Xen.
Re: Site guide
As already pointed out, anyone can already find out what are popular flying sites on the web. In particular OLCs give a good bit of info, such as long and lat, aerial/sat photo, best wind direction (by looking at flights from site) etc. [url=http://www.paraglidingforum.com/modules.php?name=leonardo&op=show_waypoint&waypointIDview=9349]Leonardo Moirs Hill[/url]
What they don't give are site briefings, rules, contacts etc.
Option 4) [b]The Club would best served by providing as much information on our flying sites as we can on our own web site without restriction.[/b] :D
Because:-
Easier to maintain and control accurate and up to date information.
The club controls the information.
Pilots would view the information on a Club web site with more credence, as opposed to info on a general web site that any Tom, Dick, or Harry could have put up.
Any restriction on access to info means people would feel restricted (doh), a negative feeling which might lead to people not bothering to jump through the hoops to get the information required, or let alone even adhering to the info.
[b]Free[/b] and [b]eas[/b]y beats restricted, onerous, and complicated every time.
Why worry about visting pilots following site rules :question: Focus on Club pilots following site rules.8O. At least we can say the visitor didn't know better.
Re: Site guide
Having the information on our web site does give us more control and lend more credence to the information, although I don't think the risk of anyone intentionally adding incorrect information is very great. The greatest risk is simply omission of information (which is currently the case). I don't think anyone in our community is irresponsible enough to change the info once it has been entered.
My main concern with having the info only on our web site is that people may not find it. I still think it is worth while putting all the information into the likes of Paragliding Earth and Leonardo (if possible), but at the very least a link from those pages to our site guide would make it easy to get the info.
Re: Site guide
I hear what you are saying and agree that there are advantages to advertising site information but I do wonder about the sensitivity of some of our sites. I hope that visiting pilots will not jeopardise the access we enjoy by thoughtless actions (or inactions).
I have converted the flight guide to an .xl spreadsheet which can be put on the website. It doesn't have the site diagrams but I
Re: Site guide
Currently, at the launch site to Moirs Hill there is a very informative sign including photos of landing area, contact details, airway restrictions and more. This is our attempt to, in the absense of everything else, inform pilots of the site rules in the hope that they will be followed.
Our sites are indeed sensitive, and few in number. Imagine the impact if we suddenly lost the use of Moirs Hill.
Is it enough to put all (up to date) information on the web to secure their future use? I don't think that us saying we are not resposible for any breach of the site rules by visiting pilots will cut any ice.
We obviously can't bury our heads in the sand and expect to have the exclusive use of our sites, but, we also need to ensure that their use follows accepted practices. For everyones benefit.
A link to the site guide on our website is an option. Additonaly to the normal information available on the site guide we also need to consider other information that we need to convey which is short term in nature such as site closures due to lambing, or weed spraying activities as was the case at Moirs.
If we keep the information on our website we can at least monitor who is accessing it ( asking people to register before they can access the site guide page is not too onerous) and this way we can at least be aware if the site is likely to be used by visiting pilots.
I have used Leonardo a number of times and love it's functionality. In fact, I have proposed through the NZHGPA forum a while back that we alI log as many of our flights on Leonardo as a means of providing proof to the likes of CAA of how much are sites are used.
I often use Leonardo to see which tracks offer the best chance of long xc's ;) , but, I haven't found any other paragliding community put up site information to the level of detail that we are talking about here.
Has anyone else founs such information freely available?
Cheers,
Xen.
Re: Site guide
Here's one. Took me about five clicks to find it. Just one of the 3080 sites listed on Paragliding Earth.
[url]http://www.paraglidingearth.com/en-html/index.php?site=7595[/url]
Re: Site guide
Here's a Club Site that has it all.
[url=http://wessexhgpg.org.uk/Sites/siteguide.htm]Wessex[/url]
Who says you can't find our Web page? Try Google the Global 1st Choice in Searching the Web.:D
Typing in "Auckland paragliding" in Google our Club site is no. 3 below Wings and Waves.
Typing in "New Zealand paragliding" in Google our site doesn't appear on the first page but the NZHGPA is no. 1
Neither search pulled up Paragliding Earth in the first page.
We can't police our flying sites at all, and no matter what we do some idiot is going to have a go at stuffing up access, intentionally or not.
Its better the idiot has all the revelant site info so that they have every opportunity to avoid a problem than to have them flying off in total ignorance.
As an aside, are we as a club actively searching for new sites? I have a few possibilities but would like club assistance in approaching landholders etc.
Re: Site guide
All this talk about site guides etc reminded me of a cartoon I got off the internet a while back.
[img]http://bp0.blogger.com/_t2-gH_ONfOM/Rq71Sq5qLaI/AAAAAAAAAAc/5eBiyh4Jj5k/S660/newsite2.jpg[/img]
:D:D:D:D:D
Re: Site guide
Please remember:
Many of `our' sites are very sensitive.
Generally we do [u]not [/u]own them.
Some are privately owned.
I do not think we should publish any site information for the general public unless we have permission from the site owner.
They may not appreciate information on their property unofficially published.
Our site guide should only be available to our members. It should be of no concern to anyone else.
Visiting pilots should contact club members before flying any of our sites.
If they have the site guide then they may not think it necessary to do this.
Just because a person may find a way of unofficially getting this information does not mean we should make it available to them.
There is already a procedure for gaining access to site information.
cheers
Les
Re: Site guide
I assume we always gain permission or at least advise the land owner that site information will be published at least for members use as part of the negotiations for access to the site.
The [b]procedure[/b] for gaining access to site info should [b]definitely[/b] be on this Web Site.
Maybe a list or means of contacting club members who are willing to be contacted should be on the Web Site.
Rather than publish a site guide on the Web with access to club members only, why not just Email a copy to club members? Security would be a lot tighter, and the guide would be available off line.
Keeping members well informed regarding site rules/status etc is the best way of avoiding problems with site sensitivity. Email may be a better notification method than a Web Site message.
Reasoning for "showing all" on our Web Site is that if site info is going to be available on the Web unofficially, it would be better to pre-empt it by doing it "Officially". Getting a printed copy of the site guide off the official Web Site may be better than contacting a Club Member, as far as up to date and accuracy (see below).
[b]Please clarify[/b], is a visitor required to be accompanied by a Club Member when flying a Club Site?
What are the responsibilities of a Club Member who is contacted by a visitor wishing to fly a Club Site?
Is this a can of worms I see before me?
Re: Site guide
I would be interested to see the site guide myself. How might one obtain a copy?
Re: Site guide
At the last meeting of the AHGPC comittee it was decided that we would publish some of the information about our sites on Cloudbase for anyone to see. There was a lot of discussion over this and the following points were raised:
- We have had cases where pilots un-aware of the current status of a flying site have used said site, and potentially jepordised our access to it.
- Many of our sites are 'open to the public' - they are off public land and the Auckland club has no particular right to prevent pilots from using them. People can quite often see pilots use a site, so trying to hide it is pointless.
- Having people know something is better then having them know nothing
- We have to have 'ownership' of this information, it has to come from us officially - we can't police external sites.
In response, we have decided to publish all the safety and access related information about our sites, but not the details of exactly where they are. This will allow us to provide the importaint information such as airspace, ratings, land ownership, warnings, and contact information, while encouraging non club members to contact the club if they want to fly there.
Flying a site is always better if you can get some 'local knowledge', so the club aims to encourage people to call first and fly second. We will be updating the sites with active site monitors, and encouraging people to put themselves forward as 'enthusiasts' that want to be called if someone is going out to fly a particular site.
Finally, I am putting myself forward as a global contact for any and all paragliding pilots that want to fly in the Auckland region. If you are here and want to get out and get your feet off the ground - call me. I encourage others to do the same.
Brendon
021 0384512
Re: Site guide
:D good on you Brendon. Sounds like a great idea. We'll work on updating the site guide and getting the info on the website, and continue putting the site signs up.
Cheers,
Xen.